Behind the Scenes with Pat Walsh
Georgie Lewis, Powells.com
Pat Walsh was one of the founding editors for MacAdam Cage, an independent publishing house with a terrific reputation for quality fiction and nonfiction and committed to supporting first time novelists.  He recently left his job there to pursue a writing career, and has since published a book of advice for writers called 78
Reasons Why Your Book May Never Be Published and 14 Reasons Why It Just
Might.
I had heard him described as one of the nicest guys in publishing, and perhaps one of the funniest, so I thought his book could be an interesting read. It turned out to be an immensely entertaining book, one that I have been touting all over the place. The advice is the best you can get—direct, to the point, and straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. It is also wickedly sly, funny, and very opinionated.
He is currently working on a new book whose research involves plenty of poker playing, and yet he still found time within his hectic schedule to speak with me over the phone... in his slippers at three in the afternoon no less.
Georgie: I loved your book 78
Reasons and, oddly enough, I'm not intending on writing a book or getting
it published. I just really enjoyed reading your book. Your voice is funny, fresh,
and self-deprecating, and the book provides a fascinating insider's guide to the
world of publishing and, funnily enough, human nature. I wanted to interview you
because I really would love more people to read your book.
Pat Walsh: Bless you!
Georgie: You're welcome. I wonder, what provoked you to write this book?
Walsh: Originally the idea came from an agent I knew—I don't
know if she was my agent at the time but she was quickly to become my agent
—who told me that she was sick of hearing me whine about this and that,
and that I should write it all down in a book format instead. So after a while
of thinking about doing that I started putting these things down. I wanted to
write it as a straight narrative and researched a few books in the process and
found that Betsy Lerner had already written the book I had planned to
write, called The Forest
for the Trees: An Editor's Advice to Writers. A fantastic, fantastic book.
I was reading her book after I had written a whole chapter on translating publishing
language into English, particularly from rejection letters, and I remember finding
that she had written the same chapter! I had been writing the sort of things
people in publishing say as a form of double-speak. Things like, "I didn't fall
in love with the book as much as I'd hoped to," which means "I hated
this!" and "I really don't think it will get any support from the people in
the house," means "I'm ashamed to show it to anyone." She had pretty much covered
it all already. I was ready to tear my hair out. So what was originally a full
chapter eventually had to be reduced to one paragraph.
There's a whole variety of reasons why books get rejected but nobody wants
to do it in a blunt manner. In fact I think one of the reasons that people are
responding to 78 Reasons is because it is written in a pretty blunt manner,
at least I tried, and most publishing books aren't. They are written in a polite,
soft way. And there is no reward in being blunt. If you respond with the truth
at the time, and later on they have something that would be of interest to your publishing house, they
don't want to send it to you because you were mean the first time. So it is
easier to hide behind the language. But I don't really believe that language
is something you should hide behind.
Georgie: The title is cheeky but also a little intimidating.
Walsh: The original title was What You Are Doing Wrong: 78 Reasons
Why Your Book Will Never Be Published.
Georgie: [Laughs] Well, inside it you also have some pretty grim prognoses
of the publishing industry. Do you think that would-be authors will read this
book and be thoroughly discouraged?
Walsh: Well, I hope they are not, because it is not really meant to
be discouraging. I see online reviews and blogs that say how discouraging it
is, and it's really not meant to be. And the question begs, can a true writer
be discouraged anyway, and I don't think so. And perhaps it is true, if you
can be discouraged maybe this is not the profession for you. If you are not
ready for knock-backs and rejection you are really in the wrong business. The
number of people who have made it in the publishing industry without rejection
is probably a handful over the past hundred years. It is actually meant to be encouraging.
If you are doing something and not being successful and you read something that
actually points out something that you have been doing and that you can change,
I would hope that would be encouraging and help you be more successful.
Georgie: I have actually read almost unanimous enthusiasm for the book.
I only read one rather disgruntled reader online who writes that you seem
snide, bitter, and mean.
Walsh: Yeah, well he actually takes the opposite tack, and I think I
write about people like him in the book, people who are thinking about an ideal.
I read that one too, and I'd have liked to attack it as not well written
but it was in fact well written. But the fact is that he totally disagrees and
thinks that the writer should stay true and that the publishing industry should
change to accommodate. A fair enough argument, the only problem with it
is that it's not going to happen. He can wish it and stand over there and say
that "I'm right and you are wrong," but it is not going to change.
I do criticize the publishing industry for being feckless. And for concentrating
too much on the bottom line which is a short term strategy rather than being
a long term strategy, which is what the publishing industry really needs. But
I tried to keep that to a minimum, and my editor did too, because this is not
a book for the publishing industry, it is for writers trying to break in. Certainly I covered
the fact that the industry is flawed and if you don't want to be part of it,
don't be part of it.
We do these comparable things by holding two up books and trying to find one
that is in the middle. But over time that creates a triangular system and books
begin to be more and more like each other. And when people's entertainment dollars
are being spread thinner for a variety of things... My dad has an ipod for example.
He went straight from eight-tracks to mp3s. I mean, more and more of people's
entertainment dollars are going into niches, and books are a large part of that
with every genre becoming another niche, instead of the whole industry becoming
one single niche. So, yes, there are a lot of things we can say about the publishing
industry being flawed but I don't think that it helps the writer very much.
Georgie: Knowing your enemy certainly helps.
Walsh: Exactly. And I think I'm as hard on the industry as I am on
writer's mistakes.
Georgie: I think that one thing I was most surprised about is that you
say that with unsolicited manuscripts you judge a book primarily on its cover
letter. Wow! What other feedback have you heard that you had taken for granted
but which would-be authors have been shocked by?
Walsh: The feedback I've been getting has been from readings mainly
—and, granted, there hasn't been that much. But the questions
have been from people who have been stymied by the submission
process, which I had thought was pretty open and clear. "Here are the submission
guidelines," and then they don't follow them, or they only do the larger ones,
and they still think it is supposed to work. They are constantly befuddled by
why that is not the case. And a lot of questions like, "I got my submission
back and it had not been read. I could see that the paperclip has not been removed."
And my first thought is, "Then the cover letter is the problem." I often say
that cover letters should take ten to twenty hours of solid work. It should
be damn perfect. And it should come across as if it took you ten minutes. It
is your face on the first date. It is all in that first impression. And still
people are shocked at how much sloppiness there is.
Georgie: Yes, I see that sometimes with submissions we get here from
self-published authors hoping for more exposure on our website.
Walsh: Actually one of my favorite books is a self-published book, for
all the wrong reasons. It's called Why Airplanes Crash written by a former
FAA investigator. I bought it when I was a reporter, hoping to learn something
in case I ever covered a crash. I realized I knew nothing, and it does a good
job of explaining things such as wind shear. In the middle of this book there
is a fairly long chapter called "People and Places" which is comprised of anecdotes
about what he has come across in his line of work. He has a story about how
he is visiting this site of a crash, four dead bodies strewn across this field,
and then suddenly he tells this horribly racist anecdote, in the middle of this
book! I guess he ran into an older black guy who was interested in the pheasants
in the plane, and he relayed the man's language with this dialect and it was
just so awful and so wildly inappropriate in the middle of this story. Well,
you know the great thing about self-publishing is that you don't know what you
are going to get. They don't have an editor, they don't have a professional
face, and no one is really looking into what is going on there. I don't like
self-publishing. I think I have been pretty clear on this. I don't think that
writers should write checks.
Georgie: I love what you write about self-publishing.
I know it has been around as long as publishing has but do you think it has
become bigger in the last few years?
Walsh: Oh, definitely, and it is because of the online thing. They found
a new way to repackage it that got everyone so excited. Now you have Print on
Demand, so you don't have to pay the bills, and internet marketing which is much
cheaper. But the fact is self-publishing a book is much more expensive
now that it was before the internet because of this. And they get you in with
one program after another, co-op payments and so forth. I mean, you take out
a $20,000 full page ad in the New York Times Book Review, and you charge
$2,000 per book to go in there. And you advertise your company over the back
of someone else. I mean, it is genius, but it is unethical. I have met two or
three people who have had good self-publishing experiences. But, I keep thinking
of... there was a place called Commonwealth, which was a vanity press in Canada
that went under and they took everybody's money. But up until the last day—
it ended up being raided—there were still authors defending it, saying it
was wonderful, it was great, believers to the end. It's dangerous. I mean there
are other, legitimate ways of getting your book published. But some authors
just have a hard time accepting that it is not time yet. It is just going to
take more time. For all the great things about writers they all seem to share
a common impatience. Which, now being on their side of it, I can completely
understand. Waiting for people to get back to you, call backs, checks to be
sent, feedback, and nothing goes as quick as you hope it will. The writer who
makes the best use of that time is the writer who is going to be the most successful.
Georgie: Do other publishers
thank you for potentially alleviating glitter-pen cover letters and so forth?
Walsh: It is funny, but ninety percent of what is in this book is in
other books. It is just told in a different way. Everyone says, "Don't get cute
with this. Try to write a serious letter that displays your talents, not your
goofiness." There are exceptions, some books written by one person in particular,
who I won't name (because he will sue me for slander) but whose advice I
disagree with wholeheartedly. Some people do preach to "grab them by the throat."
But really, a lot of my stuff—this is old stuff. I just hope that it is just
tighter and more manageable. If you need to know something in particular you
can just flip to it. Does the industry feel affected? Well I doubt it. Ninety
percent of houses aren't looking at their slush piles at all. And of those remaining
ten percent, they are only giving about five percent the most cursory of glances,
so they don't care anymore. They are just returning it. It is just a chore that
an unpaid intern does every now and again.
Georgie: What have been your biggest surprises in the world of publishing?
Books that you never thought would have taken off, or anything else like that.
Walsh: I think that my publisher had expectations of doing the great
American novel—Lonesome
Dove or something like that. Player
Piano was one he cited a lot. And I think one of our biggest surprises
was that some of our quirkier titles were the ones that took off. Ella
Minnow Pea was one of our first books that did very well. And that is a
27,000-word "progressively lipogrammatic epistolary fable." And it doesn't
fit in the paradigm at all. But people are scared of quirky. It wasn't the first
book that made money, but it was the first book that really got everybody's
attention, and everybody had rejected it. The house that bought it for paperback
rights had first rejected it. We took a certain amount of shameless pride in
taking what they had rejected and selling it back to them.
Georgie: Do you think that "quirky" works better with smaller
publishers?
Walsh: Not really. Some houses do great with quirky. Look at Chronicle.
I don't understand why people still think of Chronicle as small. They do a large
amount of titles and make and enormous amount of money.
Georgie: Now that you have left MacAdam Cage and stopped editing...
well, perhaps I shouldn't say stopped editing...?
Walsh: Oh, I'm still editing? I'm still circling typos in books
I'm reading. [Laughs] I just found one in a book about storytelling. But mostly
I'm spending my time trying to write. I'm still in my slippers at three o'clock
in the afternoon, which is great. But it is a lot harder. When you are editing
there are so many deadlines—twenty or thirty of them—and you are
lucky if you make half of them. But when you are writing you only have one deadline.
You just finish the book and turn it in. And it is so easy to procrastinate.
And although I'm getting better, it is hard. I know one writer and he can write
a book in three months. I don't know how he does it. It is beyond me.
Georgie: I know! Ian Rankin says he takes ten weeks.
Walsh: [Groans]
Georgie: But then he says he does about a year and a half of research.
Walsh: Well, yeah. I think you can build it up and then hope it comes
pouring out of you. But man—it is tough.
Georgie: I have to ask—did you get writer's block
whilst writing a book about writing?
Walsh: You know, I never actually did because of the way I formatted
the book. If I got blocked on one part I could go off and work on another part.
Luckily with that book it was easy. I wrote this book in the middle of the night
at my kitchen table—from ten to around dawn over five or six months. I never sat
down in the middle of the day and said "I'm going to work now." And, now, that's exactly what I'm doing—working in the day.
Georgie: What are you working on now?
Walsh: I'm writing a narrative nonfiction book about poker.
Georgie: Ooh—nice research job!
Walsh: It is! Well, I played in the world series of poker. Clearly I
didn't win.
Georgie: [Laughs] So now you are doing an interview rather than lying
on a Caribbean beach! Well, let me ask you this: you mention hubris several
times throughout the book—in your opinion, is that the worst thing a writer can
commit?
Walsh: I don't think so. I just think that it is something you have
to earn. If Cormac McCarthy
has hubris does anyone care? No, they won't. And whether hubris is the tragic
flaw in literature remains to be seen. But, no, I don't think that it is. It
takes a certain level of confidence, as I say in the book, to take the body
of literature and say that there is something missing. By saying it is wholly
incomplete without me. And every writer has a certain amount of that. But they
also have a certain amount of insecurity. This is why so many writers can't
take criticism, because it will shatter their own self confidence. But you know
—there are so many types, and finding commonalities between writers is
extremely difficult. I think having the right mixture between self-confidence
and insecurity is a nice balance. Believing that you can do it and also believing
you have something to learn. There is that theory that the greatest book has
never been published. That it languishes in someone's desk draw or something.
Georgie: Many cite A
Confederacy of Dunces as a similar sort of fable.
Walsh: That book was great. Not only in terms of story and storytelling,
but also in terms of serving as an inspirational hope for so many. It is also
a good example of timing. I mean if he had been published in 1972, which is,
I think, when he started sending it out, it wouldn't have worked. He was far
ahead of the publishing world. If he had stuck it in a draw and worked on something
else and resubmitted it ten years later it would have worked. It just wasn't
the time for that book. And some writers are lucky and they write
the book that it's the right time for right then.
Georgie: Right. And the odds of doing that seem to be about as good
as the odds of you winning the poker championship.
Walsh: Yeah, yeah—rub that right in! I'll be back. There's always
next year.
Georgie: Uh huh... And, so, as opposed to hubris, I have a feeling that
perhaps honesty, both to others and primarily with oneself, could be the strongest
asset for a writer?
Walsh: Oh, absolutely. Well, there's honesty on the page and, as you say,
being honest with yourself. These are two different things, and I've seen writers
who have one but not the other.
Georgie: Or, as you point out, don't lie to your agent!
Walsh: Oh, yeah, and you'd be surprised how many people do that. Trying
to posit themselves as something else to get one step closer to being published
and will embolden themselves and do anything to do so. And that is a different
kind of honesty—that is careerism. And what I'm saying is that it doesn't
work out in the long run. I mean, if your plants look thirsty you don't pee
on them.
Georgie: Now that you are out of MacAdam Cage what are you reading for
pleasure?
Walsh: Well, I think I own every book on poker ever published! But,
I have been reading this book on storytelling—Story
by Robert McKee. I think it is mostly about screenwriting. One of my writers
recommended it to me. Also, I've done some rereading. I have just reread The
Remains of the Day. And, let's see, I have a copy of Moby
Dick that I am ashamed to admit I haven't ever read. So I think that will
be my next big read. Although, I'll probably end up picking that up and then
putting it down and picking up David Sedaris again.
Georgie: And again and again...
Walsh: Exactly! It is so great seeing a guy like that—for as
blue as it is, and for how out there it seemingly is as opposed to the trend
for making everything so palatable for middle America—it is so great
to see him do so well. It is just so great. Barrel
Fever is such an amazing book! And I mean, if you were to describe it to
people, well, it's this book of humorous gay essays, everyone's eyes would just
shoot to the ground. They'd be saying "Oh, yeah, I've already got one of
those?"
I mean, this is how stupid publishing is. I remember once I was pitching a
book called Letters to Montgomery
Clift and it is a coming-of-age story about a Filipino boy who is orphaned
or his parents disappear and he is shipped off to stay with his crazy auntie
in the states, and he starts seeing visions of Montgomery Clift. It is about
coming to terms with being gay, abuse, mental illness, etc. I pitched
it for paperback rights to this guy, and he says, "Look, it sounds great, but—
and this is so embarrassing—but I already have a Filipino book." [Laughs] I
mean, he couldn't buy it because of that. And you are so proud of your industry
when you hear that sort of stuff. It was only when I explained to him how
many more Filipinos there were in the States that he become interested. He didn't
buy it and we sold it to someone else. But still, it is shameful to hear stories
like that. And the thing is, no one knows what people are going to buy. It is
guesswork. And we are constantly surprised. The Lovely Bones is an example. Nobody knew that book was going to take
off they way it did. It was no better or worse than another dozen books released
at that time, and yet it took off and no one saw that coming.
When I was at MacAdam Cage I would often pick the most quirky one to do well,
and sometimes I was wrong but more often I was right. They either do very well
or do nothing at all. Actually MacAdam Cage have one coming up called the Mysterious
Secret of the Valuable Treasure which is just so funny! I really hope it
does well. Books like that is what it is all about. One of the pleasures
of working with books is when a book that you love becomes something that others
love, too.
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